On #448, Dr. Peniel E. Joseph and I discuss the careers of Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcom X, and how examining them together reveals the complexities of both of their evolving understandings of American history and politics.

Candacy Taylor and I discuss her new book, Overground Railroad: The Green Book and the Roots of Black Travel in America. We talk about how research can transform a project, and how our understanding of our family’s histories give us windows into understanding our nation’s history, including our own precarious, sometimes alarming moment in it. We also discuss how instrumental color-coded index cards can help us balance the complex work of presenting the long threads of history.

The fiction writer and veteran Phil Klay and I discuss finding the right form for a novel, war literature, the uplift of humor, and winning the National Book Award.

On this week's show, poet and scholar Audi Barnes and I discuss the essays and poetry of Audre Lorde.